CGTN对话武汉病毒所所长王延轶

Recently we‘ve noticed a statement made by Edward Holmes， a world-leading virologist who studies the evolution of viruses。 He believes it would take about 50 years for RaTG-13 to naturally evolve to SARS-CoV-2。 The difference of over 1，100 positions is huge。 And they should respectively match the corresponding nucleotide positions in the genome of SARS-CoV-2， which means it requires more than 1，100 mutations in these exact positions to become SARS-CoV-2。 Thus， the probability is very low。

而且近期我们注意到应该说是全球病毒进化的一个顶尖学者，Edward Holmes他发了一篇声明，就认为RaTG-13的话在自然界也需要50年左右的时间才可能进化到新冠。而且你想就是1100多个位点的不同数量本身已经很大，然后这些位点还刚好都要对应到新冠病毒的相应的位点上，就刚刚好是这些1100个位点发生突变，并且刚刚好变成新冠病毒的样子，所以这里面的概率可以说是微乎其微的。

原标题：独家！CGTN对话武汉病毒所所长王延轶

Editor‘s note： The Wuhan Institute of Virology has been in the eye of the storm since the novel coronavirus， later known as COVID-19， engulfed the world。 Leaving almost nowhere untouched， the virus of unknown etiology has so far infected over 5 million people globally， with a death toll exceeding 338，000。 It has forced shutdowns worldwide， crippling economies and upending lives overnight。

Many people might misunderstand that since our institute reported the RaTG-13‘s genomic similarity to SARS-CoV-2， we must have the RaTG-13 virus in our lab。 In fact， that’s not the case。 When we were sequencing the genes of this bat virus sample， we got the genome sequence of the RaTG-13 but we didn‘t isolate nor obtain the live virus of RaTG-13。 Thus， there is no possibility of us leaking RaTG-13。

Since the first known cases were reported last December， scientists have raced to find the origins of the virus in the hope of developing a vaccine。 In the meantime， a blame game is going on， with conspiracy theories ranging from the virus “leaking” from the Wuhan Institute of Virology to China “concealing” crucial information， despite repeated claims from scientists that it originated from nature。

可能很多人都会有一个误解，就认为既然武汉病毒所报道了RaTG-13和新冠病毒基因组的相似性，那么你武汉病毒所就有这种病毒，但实际上不是这样的。我们只是在对蝙蝠样本进行测序的过程中，知道了RaTG-13病毒的序列信息，但我们并没有去分离和获得过RaTG-13活病毒，所以也就不存在泄漏RaTG13的这样一个可能。

CGTN： Since the outbreak began， there has been speculation that the novel coronavirus leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology。 How do you respond to that？

CGTN： You said the institute didn‘t have the SARS-CoV-2 nor the live virus of RaTG-13。 Since the Wuhan Institute of Virology has been researching coronaviruses， don’t you have any live viruses？ What does your virus collection center have？

Wang： This is pure fabrication。 Our institute first received the clinical sample of the unknown pneumonia on December 30 last year。 After we checked the pathogen within the sample， we found it contained a new coronavirus， which is now called SARS-CoV-2。 We didn‘t have any knowledge before that， nor had we ever encountered， researched or kept the virus。 In fact， like everyone else， we didn’t even know the virus existed。 How could it have leaked from our lab when we never had it？

您刚才提到了，这次新型冠状病毒我们是没有的，您又提到了RaTG13这个活病毒是没有的，我们其实一直以来致力于研究冠状病毒，在我们的病毒库里头都没有活病毒吗？这是一个什么样的病毒库？

CGTN： An article published in the periodical Nature in April 2018 mentioned a novel coronavirus originating from bats。 And this coronavirus was in your lab。 Is this the virus that caused the pandemic？

可是我们也同样在2018年4月的《自然》杂志上看到了一篇文章，提到了我们发现了一种来自蝙蝠的新型冠状病毒，这样的一种来自于蝙蝠的新型冠状病毒是在我们研究所的，是不是这个病毒引发了此次疫情？

Wang： Earlier you talked about some research teams from the Wuhan Institute of Virology。 One of the teams led by Professor Shi Zhengli began studying bat coronaviruses in 2004。 But its research has been focused on source tracing of SARS。 In their research what they pay more attention to， do more research on and try to isolate and obtain are bat coronaviruses similar to the one that caused SARS。

实际上在很多冠状病毒被发现的当初都被称为新型冠状病毒，比方说更早时候的MERS中东呼吸道综合征的病毒，还有您提到的18年的这篇论文里面的，还包括我们2019的新冠，其实在刚刚发现的时候都被人们称为新型冠状病毒，可能容易造成这种混淆。但实际上18年论文里面的病毒并不是我们这一次造成新冠疫情的那个病毒，那个病毒它主要是造成仔猪的腹泻和死亡，所以后来被我们命名为叫SADS，那个病毒和新冠它基因组的相似性只有50%，所以可以说是差别非常巨大的。

就像您刚才提到的武汉病毒所的一些研究团队，比方说石正丽老师的团队，他们从2004年就开始从事蝙蝠（SARS样）冠状病毒的相关研究，但是他们的研究都是围绕着SARS溯源这么一个主题所开展的。在他们研究过程中，他们更多地去关注的，更深入地去研究的以及更希望去分离获得的，都是和SARS比较相近的这种蝙蝠冠状病毒。

但是在今年的2月，我们又在《自然》杂志上发表了一篇文章，提出我们又发现了一种蝙蝠的新型冠状病毒，这个病毒和这次的新冠病毒相似度达到了96.2%，那是一个很高的相似度，有没有可能是来自于这个蝙蝠病毒呢？

We know that the entire genome of SARS-CoV-2 is only 80 percent similar to that of the SARS virus。 It‘s an obvious difference。 So， in Professor Shi’s past research， the team didn‘t pay attention to such viruses which are less similar to the SARS virus。 This is why they didn’t try to isolate and obtain RaTG-13， since its genome is only over 79 percent similar to that of the SARS virus。

您提到的这个和新冠病毒基因组相似性达到96.2%的蝙蝠的冠状病毒有一个名称叫做RaTG-13。可能在普通人看来，96.2%的相似性已经非常高了，但冠状病毒它其实是基因组最大的RNA病毒之一。

我们知道这一次的新冠，其实它和SARS全基因组的相似性也只有80%，可以说还是有比较明显的差别。所以在石老师以往的研究过程中，就没有关注这种和SARS的相似性相对比较低一些的病毒，这就是为什么他们一开始没有尝试要去分离获得RaTG13，（和SARS）基因组的相似性也只有百分之七十九点几。

所以拿新冠病毒举个例子，它全基因组有3万个碱基左右，3.8%的区别的话，其实对应的就是1100多个位点的这种差异。在自然界里面，病毒它要通过自然进化累积到这样一个数量突变的话，其实需要一个很漫长的过程。

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After many years of research， Professor Shi and her team have isolated and obtained some coronaviruses from bats。 Now we have three strains of live viruses。 One of them has the highest similarity， 96 percent to the SARS virus。 But their highest similarity to SARS-CoV-2 only reaches 79.8 percent。

CGTN spoke to Wang Yanyi （Wang）， an immunologist and director of the institute， to get her take on these rumors， how she views the outbreak and the progress in cooperating with her international counterparts。

这么多年下来，其实石老师他们确实分离获得过一些蝙蝠的冠状病毒，应该我们目前一共有三株。但是这三株病毒和SARS的相似性最高的有96%，但是和新冠病毒的相似性最高的都不超过79.8%。

这种说法完全是无中生有的。因为武汉病毒所最早是在去年的12月底，12月30号，才第一次接触到，当时还是叫不明原因肺炎的临床样本，后来也是经过了这种病原检测的工作，我们才发现这些样本里面其实含有一种以前完全未知的一个全新的冠状病毒，也就是我们现在说的新冠病毒。在这之前我们是完全没有接触过、研究过或者保存过这种病毒，实际上我们也和大家一样，都不知道这种病毒的存在。所以你都没有的东西你怎么去泄漏它呢？

CGTN： The Wuhan Institute of Virology has been devoted to studying coronaviruses since the SARS outbreak。 You‘ve made a lot of effort to track the viruses。 After the COVID-19 outbreak began， which is due to a brand new virus， what have you done to track its origin？

CGTN： But in February， the institute published another article in Nature saying you found another novel coronavirus from bats。 The similarity between this virus and the SARS-CoV-2 is up to 96.2 percent， which is relatively high。 Could it be the source of the COVID-19 pandemic？

因为我们病毒所长期以来，自从SARS以后就致力于冠状病毒的研究，我们可以说是深入到很多地方去找这个病毒，那么我们这次新型冠状病毒爆发了以后，这样一个全新的病毒，我们对它的溯源又做了哪些工作？

Take the SARS-CoV-2 for example。 Its entire genome contains about 30，000 bases。 The difference of a percentage of 3.8 means the difference of over 1，100 nucleotide positions。 In the natural world， it takes a long period of time for a virus to naturally evolve and mutate to become SARS-CoV-2。

当新冠肺炎疫情席卷全球，个别西方政客为达某种政治目的，开始大肆宣扬各种病毒阴谋论。“新冠病毒是从武汉病毒所泄漏的”，就是其中一种。随着国际学术界逐渐达成“新冠病毒源于自然界”这一共识，此类阴谋论也随之破产。近日，武汉病毒所所长王延轶接受了CGTN的专访，就一系列与新冠病毒相关的问题进行了回应。

Wang： The current consensus of the international academic community is that the virus originated from wild animals。 But we still don‘t clearly know what kind of viruses that all different wild species carry across the globe and where the viruses that are highly similar to SARS-CoV-2 are。 This is why the cooperation between scientists all over the world is needed to find the answers。 Therefore， the issue of origin-tracking is ultimately a question of science， which requires the scientists to make judgments based on scientific data and facts。

Wang： In fact， many coronaviruses are called “novel” when they are first discovered， such as MERS （the Middle East Respiratory Syndrome）， the one you mentioned and SARS-CoV-2。 They were all called novel coronaviruses when they were first discovered， which may cause confusion。 Actually， the virus mentioned in the 2018 article wasn‘t SARS-CoV-2。 The virus in the article mainly causes diarrhea and death among piglets。 It was later named SADS。 The genome sequence of SADS is only 50 percent similar to that of SARS-CoV-2。 It’s a rather big difference。

国际学术界关于这个病毒的源头是什么，目前的一个共识是它应该是来源于自然界的某一种野生动物，但是目前我们对于全球各地的种类繁多的这些野生动物上，究竟携带着什么样的病毒？究竟在哪里存在和新冠相似性比较高的病毒？其实目前都没有明确的答案，这就是为什么这个问题需要全世界的科学家一起合作来回答。所以溯源的问题归根结底它还是一个科学问题，需要科学家用科学的数据和事实来做出判断。

这次疫情发生以来，外界一直有一种这样的声音和说法，认为新冠病毒是从我们武汉病毒所泄漏的，才引发了这次全球流行的这样的一种疫情。您怎么看这个问题？

责任编辑：张申

Wang： The bat coronavirus you mentioned which has a 96.2 percent genomic similarity to SARS-CoV-2 is called RaTG-13。 From the perspective of many non-professionals， the similarity rate of 96.2 percent is a very high number。 But coronavirus is one of the RNA viruses that have the largest genomes。